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A year ago, some dedicated individuals from Routt County, with help from other leaders in Colorado, undertook the Steamboat Conservative Editorial Series. While the rigors of the campaign kept me from reading every weekly installment, what you have seen in this space has been a grassroots attempt to reason through the issues of the day and to educate. It has been an effort to explain Conservative thought and to apply it to current issues. It has been an attempt, and I think a successful one, to dispel the myth that Conservatives are a selfish and hardhearted lot.
To the contrary, Conservatives understand the fundamental truth that problems are not solved by government decreeing that it shall be so. They understand that the force of economics is much like the force of nature — it ultimately cannot be defeated, and any attempt to do so is apt to be laden with adverse and unintended consequences. They understand that the genius of America lies not with its government, but with its people, and that excessive governmental control only stifles that genius. They understand the proper role of religion in our culture and the equal danger of driving religion from the public square. They see the necessity of standards of conduct and the danger of the current trend toward moral equivalence.
I applaud the fact that the authors of the Steamboat Conservative Editorial Series are a group of citizens that took action when they were concerned with the direction that their community seemed to be taking. At the same time, they saw other like-minded folks that were discouraged, felt isolated, and needed a rallying point. Rather than join in the dejection, they decided to do something. They saw the need to be visible and to educate. Taking this route is not the easy way, but it is one that is fundamental to the success of a free democratic society.
I am reminded of my visit some years ago to the Israeli Holocaust Museum, Yad Vashem, with my daughter Sarah, who was 11 at the time. Yad Vashem includes a series of exhibits that walk the visitor through the history of the Nazi persecution of the Jews from the initial hateful rhetoric, finally, to the mass murders at Auschwitz and other sites. I was honestly concerned that the emotional intensity of Yad Vashem was too much for my young daughter, and I noticed that her grip on my hand grew tighter and tighter as we progressed through the exhibits. When we reached the end, after the depiction of the murders at Auschwitz, we came to a guestbook, which included a space for comments. In her 11-year old scrawl, my daughter signed her name and wrote these words, “Why didn’t somebody do something?”
I pray that none of us will ever be confronted again with anything as horrible as Nazism, but we all have to understand that the fate of society lies with each of us — that if we are disturbed by societal or political trends, the “somebody” who must do “something” is each of us. To quote Thomas Jefferson, “All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.”
Like activists across this great country, the authors of this series have, in their own small way and in their own small corner of the world, shouldered this responsibility, to my mind, with distinction — and perhaps with a little bigger audience than they thought they had.
Congratulations and Happy Anniversary! Your good work does not go unnoticed.
Mike Huckabee was the 44th Governor of Arkansas, serving from 1996 to 2007. He is a former chairman of the National Governors’ Association and a Baptist minister. He was a candidate for the 2008 Republican presidential nomination and is an honorary member of the Conservative Leadership Council of Northwest Colorado.
Community comments
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bcpow (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 7:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey Mike, tell us more about how the earth is 6000 years old. Who would have thought that the Flintstones was based on reality?
Snowmaker (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 9:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
If all you have is "Hey Mike tell us how the Earth is only 6000 years old" then you need to educate your self more then just what is taught in the public school system today. Take a look at "Expelled, no intelligence allowed". Scientist are disproving evolution and they are looking elsewhere for the answers but due to the system they are being fired and expelled instead of others listening to their finds. Look back at Nazi Germany, it was survival of the fittest and the Jews were not the fittest according to Hitler. This is the same basic thing being taught in our schools now.
Having morals, having a belief in an everlasting Savior is a good thing for our short time here on Earth. So many people are being persecuted in this world for their beliefs and we live in a free country but people want bigger government to control our lives. The school system has cut so many programs that use the right side of the brain and they only focus on the left side of the brain to meet ACT and SAT score objectives.
Back to the 6000 years old, do a little research on the grassroots movement out there that is finding evidence of Noah's Flood and creation. Nearly every old culture in the world has a history of a flood and also dragons. Should we dismiss what people saw and recorded as history and say the dragons they saw were not real and substitute our dinosaurs, which may have been the same thing.
By the way Mike Huckabee is a good man, an excellent speaker and has a grip on what this country needs. Just look and see what he did in the 1990's to bring a democratic state together to make it better. No other candidate has a record of bringing both parties together more then he does. Don't dis-count Mike because he is a Christian and believes the Bible word for word because he could be our next VP.
Here are some websites
http://www.expelledthemovie.com/
www.drdino.com
http://www.icr.org/ Institute for Creation Research
http://www.creationmuseum.org/ Creation Museum
http://www.creationscience.com/onlineboo... Center for Creation Science
http://www.intelligentdesignnetwork.org/... Intelligent Design Network
http://darwinconspiracy.com/ Darwin Conspiracy
http://www.judgingpbs.com/ Darwins Failed Predictions
http://www.discovery.org/ Discovery Institute
http://www.conservapedia.com/Theory_of_E...
http://www.arn.org/ Access Research Network
http://www.designwatch.org/ Design Watch
http://www.reasons.org/ Reasons to Believe
http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/ Science Against Evolution
http://www.answersingenesis.org/
bcpow (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 10:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Glad to see you can put ID into a search engine. Flinstonistas are funny.
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/enterta...
rokboat (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 10:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Mike Huckabee our next VP? God save us! What would Jesus do? Believe!
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 10:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe finds it absolutely hilarious that Snowmaker would cite discredited wanna-be scientist Kent Hovind, and the Institute for Creation research as evidence to support his misguided belief in an imaginary friend. Obviously, Snowmaker only reads things that support what he thinks he already knows.
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 10:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe also just realized that Snowmaker thinks dinosaurs and people existed at the same time !
Joe is currently convulsing with laughter !
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 10:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Here's a little info on Dr. Dino's background, discovered in 30 seconds of research. Joe is not even going to, at this time, address the 58 federal charges he has been convicted of.
"Kent Hovind is a young-earth creationist who gives frequent public lectures on evolution and creationism. He is well-known for repeating the claim that the remains of a basking shark found by Japanese fishermen off the coast of New Zealand were actually those of a recently deceased plesiosaur.
Hovind claims to possess a masters degree and a doctorate in education from Patriot University in Colorado. According to Hovind, his 250-page dissertation was on the topic of the dangers of teaching evolution in the public schools. Formerly affiliated with Hilltop Baptist Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado, Patriot University is accredited only by the American Accrediting Association of Theological Institutions, an accreditation mill that provides accreditation for a $100 charge. Patriot University has moved to Alamosa, Colorado and continues to offer correspondence courses for $15 to $32 per credit. The school's catalog contains course descriptions but no listing of the school's faculty or their credentials. Name It and Frame It lists Patriot University as a degree mill."
Snowmaker (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 10:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Sorry but Flinstonistas don't come up in a google search.
Evolution is based on theories and findings that are recent to over 150 years old. To say Ben can't use the base of all evolutionary beliefs that started not that long ago for discussion today is wrong. Just like the three little pigs story, what have you built your house on? Creationist have built it on a solid foundation and the few words in Genesis that we live by have many truths that have and are being proven today. If the early foundations of evolution are not built on a solid foundation then the "facts" of today that are based on a sandy foundation will be washed away when the truth is exposed. Our beliefs are based on what people saw centuries ago.
The article you sent has very few facts in it and is just trying to break down the character of Ben Stein instead of really trying to address the questions at hand. Also to call these scientists crazy or what ever else you want to describes them to a tee. Most scientists are out there and are very focused on their work. They are a group of tight knit intelligent people that are also set in their ways. When one, or in this case, several step out of the box they are put out to the wolves. The wolves are the ones that threw them out.
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 10:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe doesn't think that the words in Genesis are a solid foundation, either.
Joe is intelligent enough to realize that evolutionary theory is proven on a daily basis in scientific laboratories, over and over again.
Joe would recognize Snowmaker's comments as falling under one of the "Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian"
"You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old."
Snowmaker (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 10:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
It is funny to read your little comments and about how funny this is to read what I have to say. Yes Dr Hovind has some questionable stuff related to his education but if he has been convicted of so many federal crimes why isn't he is jail?
As far as reading only what supports my beliefs, I tend to read more of it but I grew up in a school system that teaches so much about evolution I didn't have time to think for myself. I am playing catch up now to find the truth. I also read and research all political viewpoints and try to have an unbiased viewpoint of political issues.
As far as dinosaurs and humans living together lets open our eyes to a few things. There have been human footprints and dinosaur footprints found together. Petrified trees have spanned several layers of earth that are of different ages. Here is a question, why in the layers we see exposed by road cuts or erosion, there isn't erosion in those layers? Today we see a break down in the layers, not building up. Plants and animals are becoming extinct at alarming rates, not rebuilding or making new ones. Is that because of our pollution or because God created a perfect Earth in Genesis and when Sin was introduced everything has been going downhill from then.
Basically today we have two beliefs, Evolution and Creation. What if there is a third one that is very different but is right?
Snowmaker (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 10:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)
If life just happened, why can't scientist take the sludge of amino acids and whatever else and make life? Why does Joe speak in the third person? Kind of like the Sienfeld episode about a weird guy.
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 11:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe will proceed to address these assertions one at a time:
"As far as dinosaurs and humans living together lets open our eyes to a few things. There have been human footprints and dinosaur footprints found together."
Dinosaurs and men do exist together, the difference between what Snowmaker is saying and reality is that dinosaurs exist today as BIRDS.
Joe is going to assume that Snowmaker is referring to the long since discredited Paluxy tracks.
" State Park Ledge..... This shelf, situated above the main track layer in Dinosaur Valley State Park, is across the river from the north-west parking lot. A variety of supposed "man tracks" here were first publicized by Stanley Taylor and crew in the late 1960's, and were subsequently advocated by other "man track" enthusiasts.However, careful analysis of the supposed prints here indicates that they are merely natural irregularities and erosional features of the substrate. Many past "man track" advocates had applied water, oil, or other substances to the markings to encourage the appearance of human shapes; however, without selective highlighting none show clear human features.
The Taylor Site..... This was the Paluxy site most often claimed to contain human tracks, beginning with Stanley Taylor's research and film in the late 1960's and early 1970's, and continuing with other claims throughout the 1970's and 1980's. However, the most thorough analyzes indicate that the alleged human tracks here are elongate, metatarsal dinosaur tracks--made by dinosaurs that, at least at times, impressed their soles and heels as they walked. When the digit marks of such tracks (which are common in the Paluxy Riverbed) are subdued by one or more factors (erosion, sediment infilling, or mud-collapse), they often resemble giant human prints. Most of the tracks on the Taylor Site are largely infilled with a secondary sediment which hardened into the original track depressions. When the tracksite surface is well cleaned, at least some tracks in each trail show shallow tridactyl (three-toed) digit impressions indicating dinosaurian origin, as as well as color and texture distinctions corresponding to the infilled material and further confirming the dinosaurian nature of the tracks. Recent claims that some of these tracks have human prints within them have been shown to be as baseless as the original claims."
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 11:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Con't.....
"The Baugh/McFall Sites....... In the late 1960's and 1970's one trail on this ledge was considered human by some workers, but later acknowledged by other creationists to consist of eroded, elongate dinosaur tracks. Since 1982 several other sites along this ledge have been excavated by Carl Baugh and associates, who claimed many other "man tracks" there. However, rigorous studies have failed to support such claims. The alleged human tracks on these sites involve several phenomena, including elongate dinosaur tracks and parts thereof; indistinct elongate marks of unknown origin that were not in striding trails; shallow, vague markings in the rock surface or overlying marl; invertebrate trace patterns, and some markings with evidence of deliberate alteration."
Joe thinks that Snowmaker should research before he posts.
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 11:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe thinks "Dr." Hovind isn't in jail because convictions for tax evasion rarely result in jail time.
Snowmaker (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 11:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I am waiting for a response to
"If life just happened, why can't scientist take the sludge of amino acids and whatever else and make life?"
What happened to the others that posted earlier?
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 11:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe stands corrected and should pay attention to his own rules...
Hovind was sentenced on January 19, 2007 to ten years in prison and ordered to pay the federal government restitution of over $600,000. After his prison term finishes, he will have to serve another three years of probation. A tearful Hovind had hoped to avoid prison, telling the court, "If it's just money the IRS wants, there are thousands of people out there who will help pay the money they want so I can go back out there and preach."
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 11:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe will get around to the rest of Snowmaker's misguided assertions, Snowmaker needs to be patient. Unlike Snowmaker, Joe RESEARCHES his material.
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 11:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Snowmaker says....
"Here is a question, why in the layers we see exposed by road cuts or erosion, there isn't erosion in those layers?"
Answer.......There is.
Again, Joe thinks Snowmaker only reads what he thinks supports what he thinks he already knows.
dogd (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 11:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The "genius of private enterprise" was largely lost when companies began to be focused on shareholder perception instead of making the best widgets or delivering the best service.
The "genius of private enterprise" is a very real and valid concept, but the hard sad fact is that government (if we can elect some common-sense DOERS, instead of bible-thumping righties, or "honey you need to see yourself as a victim" lefties), is needed to prevent the dissolution of our nation.
Since deregulation, the "genius of private enterprise" has been a little hard to find in the energy, airline,and hedgefund...oops hedgefunds have never really been regulated.
The problem with putting on the straightjacket of the "true conservative" label these days is that you end up backing the export of important American jobs and industries, and you can't really speak up about printing up obscene amounts of gift cash for the pleasure and benefit of the banking industry . A "true conservative" these days is a pawn for the hedgefunds more than American interests.
All forms of big government are bad, but the worst form of BIG GOVERNMENT is huge companies run amok . Balance and common sense are needed right now, as well as a little INTELIGENT RE-regulation here and there.
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 11:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Snowmaker says:
"Today we see a break down in the layers, not building up. Plants and animals are becoming extinct at alarming rates, not rebuilding or making new ones."
Joe will now type slowly so that Snowmaker can maybe understand.
Joe thinks Snowmaker conveniently forgets that ancient layers in the sediment took millions if not billions of years to accumulate, and that "rebuilding" would not be readily obvious, considering the relatively short life span of humans.
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 11:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe respectfully agrees with dogd's post.
So far, Joe respectfully disagrees with practically everything that Snowmaker has posted.
From what Joe has observed thus far, Snowmaker seems to want to jump to another topic as soon as what he has posted has been disproved.
Joe wonders where Snowmaker's evidence to support the assertion that man and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time is ?
Snowmaker (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 11:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Tax problems, I wish we could have the Fair Tax system in place. Any law-abiding citizen could end up in jail for taxes the way the system is now. Thank you for the insight on Hovind, I will look into it more but he is only one of the many resources I posted above and tax problems doesn't dis-count a lot of what he does because they don't relate to each other very well.
As for the tracks in Dinosaur National Park I never heard of those in the studying I did two years ago on it. If they truly are not human then I stand corrected, but with time (thousands of years) the elements can make things like tracks change drastically.
Here is another question for you, the Grand Canyon. Did it really form over millions of years? Lets look at current topography of the Colorado River drainage above the Canyon. The rim of the canyon is around 6000' elevation. Go up river and look at what is below that elevation. Grand Junction and the entire valley, Moab, Dinosaur NP, Craig is right about 6000'. Now fill up the canyon with dirt and let the water fill the lake. The lake was extremely large behind it. If the canyon formed over millions of years, when the water crested the top of the rim wouldn't it start eroding at a faster rate every minute like we can demonstrate in a lab? This is a simple dam breach on the biggest scale we have seen. Also where are the tailings from the canyon? There is a lake below it called Mead that was built with a simple concrete dam. Then below are more. Maybe the delta in Mexico is where all the material ended up. It would take a tremendous amount of water at once to push that much material hundreds of miles.
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 11:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe would very much appreciate Snowmaker to cite exactly the sources for his claim about the coexistence of man and dinosaur, not just post links to generally discredited web sites that were created solely to attempt to justify belief in an imaginary friend.
Joe encourages Snowmaker to take his time and to be concise.
Joe will now address the Grand Canyon question, after a few minutes research. Joe doesn't think it will be very difficult.
Snowmaker (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 11:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Any of the facts I gave for my side I can find the info online from websites that you will say are not correct and have been dis regarded by the scientific community just like Expelled has shown. As far as the erosion topic goes, we just need to look at the canyons and mountains around us, everything is breaking down. Also I never have seen erosion in the layers around the western USA or the parts of Europe I have been to. The only erosion is what is happening now and and exposing the layers that don't have erosion.
Sorry but I have to go and work, I have to be at work some Sundays instead of at church with my family. I will be back later.
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 11:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe found some preliminary facts about the Grand Canyon, which Joe thinks answers at least a couple of Snowmaker's assertions:
"The Colorado River delta is a large delta, containing about 10,000 cubic miles of sediment. This is far more material than would be required to fill the Grand Canyon, and more than could be deposited in a mere 6000 years.
Of course, there is a lot more involved than the Canyon alone. Thousands of square miles of plateau have been deeply eroded over the millennia, and much of this is also found in the delta. Other material has ended up in inland flood plains below the canyon, and lost to wind, and much is completely dissolved and dispersed throughout the oceans. Some links and details are found at http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD... "The mouth of the Colorado River does not have enough sediment for the Grand Canyon."
Joe wishes Snowmaker a fine day at work, hopes to continue this debate at a later time.
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 11:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)
By the way, Joe has just realized that the sources Snowmaker is using even recognize that the exposed strata in the Grand Canyon date to 1.5 billion years old.
two_planker (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 12:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe you crack me up
seabirth (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 1:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
too bad this post turned into a creationism vs evolution argument instead of laughing at another funny conservative commentary.
let's talk about huckabee's record as a "conservative".
On taxes: "By the end of his ten-year tenure, Governor Huckabee was responsible for a 37% higher sales tax in Arkansas, 16% higher motor fuel taxes, and 103% higher cigarette taxes according to Americans for Tax Reform (01/07/07), garnering a lifetime grade of D from the free-market Cato Institute. While he is on record supporting making the Bush tax cuts permanent, he joined Democrats in criticizing the Republican Party for tilting its tax policies "toward the people at the top end of the economic scale" (Washington Examiner 09/13/06), even though objective evidence demonstrates that the Bush tax cuts have actually shifted the tax burden to higher income taxpayers."
On spending: "Under Governor Huckabee's watch, state spending increased a whopping 65.3% from 1996 to 2004, three times the rate of inflation (Americans for Tax Reform 01/07/07). The number of state government workers rose 20% during his tenure (Arkansas Leader 04/15/06), and the state's general obligation debt shot up by almost $1 billion, according to Americans for Tax Reform. The massive increase in government spending is due in part to the number of new programs and expansion of already existing programs initiated by Governor Huckabee, including ARKids First, a multimillion-dollar government program to provide health coverage for thousands of Arkansas' children (Arkansas News Bureau 04/13/06)."
http://www.clubforgrowth.org/2007/01/a_r...
seabirth (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 1:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
On morals: "the local prosecuting attorney— bombarded with complaints generated by a national animal-rights group—to write a letter to the Arkansas state police seeking help investigating whether David and another teenager had violated state animal-cruelty laws. The state police never granted the request, and no charges were ever filed. But John Bailey, then the director of Arkansas's state police, tells NEWSWEEK that Governor Huckabee's chief of staff and personal lawyer both leaned on him to write a letter officially denying the local prosecutor's request. Bailey, a career officer who had been appointed chief by Huckabee's Democratic predecessor, said he viewed the lawyer's intervention as improper and terminated the conversation. Seven months later, he was called into Huckabee's office and fired."
"(Miller County, Arkansas) Two boy scout counselors, 17 year old Clayton Frady and 18 year old David Huckabee , the son of Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee, have admitted to catching a stray dog during their summer session at Camp Pioneer in Hatfield, AR, and hanging the dog by his neck, slitting his throat and stoning him to death."
http://www.newsweek.com/id/78241
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/12/16...
boy, that's a stand up conservative. it's too bad the religious nuts have taken over the republican party.
Snowmaker (anonymous)
April 27, 2008 at 9:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
There are always two sides to the story. The rest of the article had more to the story then what you posted in here. First Huckabees son was 18 and parents have limited to no control over their children the older they get. Second they put down a stray dog that was in bad shape. Lets remember where they were at, they most likely do put animals down when they are sick and in bad shape without a vet but he probably didn’t have a gun available to shoot it. The way they put the dog down is the question but we have no idea what the dog was doing prior to them putting it down. Could it have had rabies or was it aggressive? The article didn’t talk about that.
Taxes – Most states including CO have put a larger tax on cigarettes for good reasons. A tax for health care for the children of the state, that is a good thing and moving forward. As for the other taxes the state was in bad shape before Huck took office so he was probably playing catch up. The last thing is the governor doesn’t just make up new taxes and signs them into law. It takes other elected officials and most of them were democrats.
Grand Canyon – Basically those articles give evidence of the delta which I knew about before but the delta is way down stream from the canyon. The evidence of the delta gives better evidence of it happening very quickly with an extremely large amount of water shaping and moving the material.
The evolutionary theory has changed over the years to fit new thoughts and findings but to believe that birds came from dinosaurs is much more of a belief then my faith that God exists.
Here was the first post about this article by bcpow “Hey Mike, tell us more about how the earth is 6000 years old. Who would have thought that the Flintstones was based on reality?” I didn’t start the debate that we have had here but I felt the comment above needed to be addressed. Those of you that don’t believe in a higher power that is your right in our free country. I also have the same right as you to debate here or anywhere else.
The bottom line in this evolution/creation debate is that it doesn’t matter that either of these are taught in schools. To know evolution doesn’t make a person a better lawyer, doctor, engineer or person in general but what it does is take away from learning what a person will need in the future.
seven (anonymous)
April 28, 2008 at 12:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Mike Huckabee
May God bless you for standing up even in steamboat---- to say the least not a God fearing area. Expect to be lambasted and lampooned .
In a leadership role for our country what matters is a person that believes in God and also supports Israel, with that foundation all falls into place. These qualities your heart and soul contains. Our family is still praying that God will at least place you as our next Vice Pres.
The 3 remaining Pres. candidates do not seem to support Jerusalem or Israel. Our current Pres. has promised to take Israels land and make a palestinian state but does believe in God. God promised the Jewish people by an everlasting covenent--I will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel.
For each and every time America came against Israel, America has paid clearly and dearly.
For those of us that know Him(Jesus) we are allowed to see the mortgage crisis, the credit crisis, oil price purges and date it by the visits from our politicans who went to Israel to take the God given land and try to give it to the palestinians.
Please remember steamboat and areas like it that believe there is no God and no satan. All satan desires as you know is to blind folks in thinking there is no God. satan could careless if anyone knows he is real. With no God satan wins by deceit.
Was a blessing to see your article on Passover. Many old time prayer warriors take a stand with the humble servant of God turned Pastor, turned Politician, turning America back to the throne of God.
May God bless you and give you strength for the battle.
two_planker (anonymous)
April 28, 2008 at 1:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"In a leadership role for our country what matters is a person that believes in God (seven)"...
If our next president is to use God as a guide to run he or she's time in office...god help us all!!!
What we need is faith! Faith in that there might one day be a separation of church and state and by doing this it may better serve the great people of this nation.
seabirth (anonymous)
April 28, 2008 at 7:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)
and people wonder why "conservatives" support tax and spend republicans... because they believe in god.
they believe the subprime mess, oil prices, etc are because of isreal policy... and they think hanging a dog, slitting it's throat, and stoning it is just "putting it down".
and we want a presidential candiate that panders to this group of lunatics?
but of course we wouldn't want someone perceived as "elite" as president. we choose based on who we would want to have a beer with... or in the case of seven and snowmaker... who they would want to burn books with.
bcpow (anonymous)
April 28, 2008 at 7:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Let me get this straight.
If our politicians would convince the Jews to crush the Palestinians and occupy all their god given land, we wouldn't have high gas prices or a crashing economy? 7 and rainmaker should get together and chat about the good ole times when the earth was flat and the center of the universe.
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous)
April 28, 2008 at 8:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)
They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
seabirth (anonymous)
April 28, 2008 at 10:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)
this is a fox news special report:
"we have just uncovered quotes by thomas jefferson showing him to hate america and god. we urge our viewers to write their congressman to support bill 15432, which would remove thomas jefferson's image from mt rushmore and the nickel, and put in it's place george w bush's face, who believes in god and loves america..
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 28, 2008 at 2:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
As Joe takes a seat in front of the monitor and proceeds to read seven's post, he thinks to himself, "Should a freethinking, intelligent, handsome person like Joe even lower himself to a logical deconstruction of this particularly strange and slightly disturbing post?"
He sips his single malt, lights his 30th cigarette of the day and thinks.
He thinks ahead to a nicer, wiser, calmer, saner time when Joe, if he has anything to do with it, will be able to open the pages of his local newspaper and not have to endure the rantings of the undereducated, superstitious, frightened members of his species.
Joe, with a faint smile on his strikingly handsome face, thinks of the children that will no longer be scared of their parent's imaginary friend, of the children who will no longer live in fear of airplanes flying overhead, wondering if the bombs of the faithful will take yet another family member, pet, or friend. He thinks ahead to a time when his friends and neighbors no longer live in fear of an unsubstantiated supernatural being.
Joe takes another sip of his single malt and thinks what a better place the world will become, with no religious hatred, less ignorance, more of an enlightened way of life for it's citizens.
Joe realizes that seven's post only shows the sort of fear and ignorance that organized religion has exploited man with for centuries and centuries. He, for a split second, feels pity for seven and the constant state of terror he must live under.
Joe, the faint smile still on his perfectly shapen lips, thinks of how much happier seven might be if he weren't so scared of dying.
Putting down his glass with a thud, Joe says aloud to himself, "The heck with all that, some people just don't get it ! Someone must take the first step towards enlightening the confused, and it might as well be me."
Then, looking at the bottle he says...
"As long as the scotch lasts"
424now (anonymous)
April 28, 2008 at 3:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
All of Jefferson’s comments on the matter of Religion could conceivably be parried down to this sentiment.
"Religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God"
Thread,
Government never advocated a separation of a man and his God. Government advocated a freedom to believe what an individual chooses to believe. The spirit of the law was to allow for and provide a haven to those experiencing religious persecution around the world.
Seabirth,
Which specific quote of Thomas Jefferson’s showed that he hated the United States? I reviewed the Declaration of Independence and can’t find a thing.
Metric_Mike (anonymous)
April 28, 2008 at 3:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe has found his god, it is himself.
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 28, 2008 at 3:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe slowly raises the shades in his semi-darkened dining room. He blinks in the bright Yampa valley sun, reveling in it's warmth.
He raises his glass in a toast to the giver of all life, the true energy source of all living things as we know them.
He thinks to himself how unnecessary the postulation of an imaginary friend who lives in the sky is. Another smile passes across his perfect aquiline features.
Before raising the shades, Joe had Googled a phrase from Snowmaker's previous post, and was saddened to see his first suspicion had been accurate - Snowmaker had essentially word-for-word copied the gist of Ben Stein's new documentary,
"Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed".
Joe thinks about how this film uses loaded rhetoric, strange images, dubiously-credentialed experts, and personal attacks on a few of the fringe element of otherwise respected scientists to attempt to make the case for the so-called "Intelligent Design" movement.
Joe remembers a few years back, when the news reported of a court case in some Godforsaken place where they don't sell fine whisky, like South Carolina or Arkansas, where a group of "concerned citizens" decided that the case for creationism, which really what the ID folks are promoting, should be taught alongside biology and evolution as "fact".
Joe sips his drink and thinks of his laughter the day that the Board of Education simply said "OK, please provide us with the scientific evidence, really, any evidence, that supports this brand of science".
The group of concerned citizens, not having any of said evidence, slunk slowly away into the shadows, having to be content with occasionally attempting to interject themselves into our laws and our schools.
Joe raises the shades and thinks that that was at least one other day the light shined brightly.
Joe toasts the sun, and hopes for another.
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 28, 2008 at 4:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Returning to the computer, Joe notices another post had been added. He reads:
"Religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God"
Joe thinks about how that is true. He then raises the glass to his perfectly shaped, yet masculine lips, takes a sip and says to himself, "I wonder if 424 realizes that unsubstantiated belief could be considered a form of delusion, and therefore a form of insanity?"
Joe remembers, culled from the recesses of his incredibly facile mind, a line from a comedian he once heard:
"If you're praying, it could be called talking to God. If God talks to you, it is called schizophrenia."
Joe returns his penetrating, intelligent yet compassionate eyes to the screen. He realizes he agrees with almost all of 424's post. Then his gaze crosses the words;
"Which specific quote of Thomas Jefferson’s showed that he hated the United States? I reviewed the Declaration of Independence and can’t find a thing."
What could only be described as a guffaw explodes from Joe's chiseled chest. At first, he thinks 424 is exhibiting a brand of his own particular humor, but soon realizes that he must have simply read Seabirth's post incorrectly.
Joe sips from his glass, thankful that he has the cognitive skills to comprehend the writing in front of him.
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous)
April 28, 2008 at 4:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Religion, like any inebriant, is mostly benign when partaken of in tempered and private moderation. However, when consumed publicly in large and insatiable quantities it reaches a toxic level that does harm to the indulger and those around them.
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 28, 2008 at 4:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe raises his glass to Hadley.
"Well said, sir" He says.
He thinks of a story told of Winston Churchill, in which a lady of high society, offended at a slightly impaired Prime Minister said scoffingly, "You're drunk!".
To which Churchill replied "Yes Madam, I may be. But tomorrow morning I'll be sober, and you'll still be ugly".
Joe wishes more of our politicians were as quick on their feet as Mr. Churchill.
RockyMountainTop7 (anonymous)
April 28, 2008 at 9:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I agree with this quote by Thomas Jefferson that Huckabee used:
“All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.”
Oh, so very true...
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 28, 2008 at 9:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe agrees with RockyMountain, which exactly why he posts in these often silly forums.
RockyMountainTop7 (anonymous)
April 28, 2008 at 10:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I don't believe that aliens came to planet earth and created living organisms out of mud pots.
Then out of these mud pots humans took billions of years to some how evolve into intelligent beings.
LOL!!!
424now (anonymous)
April 28, 2008 at 11:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey Joe,
To consider me insane or deluded is a case the could be proven given the correct environs. Sort of similar to Galileo being considered a heretic by that grandest of political elements, the Catholic Church. We have this limited ability to comprehend the universe that we inhabit. Hopefully without sounding to bohemian, There are far to many possibilities to eliminate before any concerted or final proven fact will emerge on the God question for little ol' me to make a judgment at this point would simply be premature.
As my choices in life have often fell to following my gut instinct, I choose to believe in all mighty God. I don't ask you to and I never will.
Yo Rocky!
That there is a tenant rating 10 if ever a tenant deserved a number rating. Although not a member of his endearing and enduring personal society I hold the mans actions rating reverence.
On the alien thingy, one more of those damnably pesky possibilities that have yet to be eliminated. Sometimes the scientific method just curbs my enthusiasm.
nibbler (anonymous)
April 28, 2008 at 11:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Snowmaker
Thought you should know that Joe_mama, Hadleyburg_Press,Metric_Mike,two_planker and dogd are all the same person. Over on the "Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem" Posting he used to be known as Hunterdog and various other alias's, but his potty mouth finally got him in trouble with the Pilot and they erased his identity when he tangled with Rob Douglas. Instead of using foul language all he can do now is gang up on you with multiple usernames and try to wear you down. He is easy to spot now. Too bad he doesn't try to carry a decent conversation. He purposely wrecks any postings that are spiritual because he hates God and Jesus according to his own postings. The funny part was he got so worked up over the "Jerusalem" postings that he shot himself in the foot playing "quick-draw" with his mouth.
424now (anonymous)
April 28, 2008 at 11:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey Joe,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxNOCl7S7...
freshair (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 7:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey Joe, you never did get around to answering
"If life just happened, why can't scientist take the sludge of amino acids and whatever else and make life?"
C'mon, give it a try....
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 7:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)
How to create life?
Give me 3 billion years to mix all of the unknown random variables and I bet I could do it...
Nibbler,
You speak for god and now you speak for me too? I'm honored. You should know, that I have no hatred for you or your beliefs. I would in fact, continue to defend your right to your beliefs. I only ask that you keep them seperate from the functions of State. Got it? Seperation of church and State.
bloggyblog (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 8:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)
as blog was walking home from a recent trip to margaritaville. blog, in a weary, tequila induced fog, stumbled upon a living, breathing dinosaur! the dinosaur was standing in front of a gas station, with jesus sitting on his back. despite jesus's best efforts the dinosaur just wouldn't move and stood stoically while jesus pleaded " i need a ride back to heaven and your my only hope". but the dinosaur wouldn't budge and jesus soon dismounted and walked on down the road, leaving blog standing by the dinosaur, who still didn't move or answer any of blog's questions. this bizarre experience has left blog with some new insightful thoughts.1- dinosaurs like to hang out in front of gas stations cause thats where they friends and family are. 2- to get to heaven you need to ride a dinosaur but there not very cooperative. 3- pass on that 4'th margarita!
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 8:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe awakes to the sound of birds chirping and the morning sunlight streaming through his bedroom window. He quietly rises from his bed, careful to not awaken Mrs._Mama, and walks downstairs to the coffee maker that is sending the inviting aroma of quality free-trade coffee around the kitchen.
He sips his coffee, stetches his lean, yet perfectly proportioned body, and walks outside to the deck.
"Yet another beautiful day in the valley ", he thinks to himself.
Finishing his first cigarette of the day, he steps back inside to the computer, checks his email, and takes care of some business odds and ends that had been allowed to stack up.
Joe finishes his work, and opens the SP & T homepage to catch up on the happenings in town. He notices some new posts in the Huckabee thread, clicks on the link, and reads what had been posted since last he logged on.
Reading 424's post, he smiles and thinks to himself, " Now there's an admirable person, despite his unsubstantiated belief in a higher power, he at least has some reasoning skills and can articulate his thoughts decently."
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 8:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Con't.
Joe then notices the post from something called a "nibbler", who if Joe remembers correctly, had his/her/it's head handed to him/her/it by Joe's spiritual brother, Hunterdog, in another forum. Seems that this thing called nibbler decided to interject itself in a battle of the wits, but unfortunately showed up unarmed.
Joe, with a smile on his handsome face, remembers how, after being completely shown to be confused with logic and reason, this nibbler thing resorted to calling Hunterdog and other posters in that forum "liars" and screaming something about Hunterdog and others being the same person.
Joe recognizes nibbler is trying to use the same tactic in dealing with Joe. Instead of having the ability to debate in a reasonable fashion, Joe sees that this thing called nibbler would repeat the same unfounded, gossipy, childish accusations it attempted to use in the past.
Joe allows a small snicker to escape his amazingly perfect features.
Upon closer examination of this nibbler thing's post, he realizes that it has no cognitive skills, either.
Joe reads it's post, which says " he used to be known as Hunterdog and various other alias's, but his potty mouth finally got him in trouble with the Pilot and they erased his identity when he tangled with Rob Douglas."
Joe has an actual working memory, so he remembers that Hunterdog simply suggested that Mr. Douglas limit himself to one trip to the buffet, that buffet preferably being back in the D.C. neighborhood from which he came.
Joe shakes his head regretfully at Hunterdog's less than tactful comment, and thinks of how Hunterdog was like Mike Tyson, looking for the knockout punch constantly, whereas Joe tends to be kinder and gentler, more like Sugar Ray Leonard, except extraordinarily better looking. Almost like a Greek statue, as his adoring wife reminds him of constantly.
Joe remembers how Hunterdog's correct statement that the current Pope was once a member of the Hitler Youth and a member of the Luftwaffe during the Second World War, before deserting at the war's end with thousands of other German soldiers, was in reality what probably got Hunterdog booted.
Joe takes a moment to remember the friend he never met, Hunterdog, and to mourn the loss of his posts.
Joe returns to nibbler's post, and read's he/she/it's statement " He purposely wrecks any postings that are spiritual because he hates God and Jesus according to his own postings. "
Joe thinks about how difficult it must be to hate something that has yet to be proven to exist.
Joe thinks about how difficult, and how much of a stretch of logic it must be to love something that yet to be proven to exist.
Joe looks out at the rising sun, and thanks whatever power there may be that he can never be included in either group.
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 9:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe continues to freshair's post, and his/her's question"If life just happened, why can't scientist take the sludge of amino acids and whatever else and make life?"
"C'mon, give it a try...." he reads, detecting a challenging tone in freshair's post.
Joe leans back, sips his organic free-trade java, and thinks about how freshair is attempting the long since debated and discredited "God of the Gaps" creationist argument, which basically says that if you can't figure out how something happened or works, a supernatural being must have done it.
Joe thinks about how this argument comes from an ignorant place, not stupid, just unlearned.
Joe considers how lucky he is to have the mental fortitude to read not just things that tell him what he thinks he already knows, but to examine in detail opposing viewpoints.Joe pitys the folks who don't share that same ability.
Finishing his coffee, Joe moves like a cat up the stairs and towards the shower, where a voluptuous, nubile redhead awaits to assist him in his morning preparations.
steamboatsconscience (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 9:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
joe
thine ego is only matched by the recently deceased sbvore
all hail Steamboats newest Hemingway! Sans links!
I've got a working Underwood and a pack of Galois you can borrow to add some realism to your narcissistic ramblings.
Hope you are copywriting all this, I am an opportunist.
Next full moon is in 3 weeks.
LOL!
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 9:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
As Joe showers and allows himself to be scrubbed by his adoring Mrs. Mama, he thinks about how flattered he is to be thought of in the same light as Hadleyburg Press, Hunterdog, dogd, and two planker.
It warms his heart that there are actually other freethinking, rational humans in this valley, and that unidentifiable things such as a nibbler are not the status quo.
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 10:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Sitting down for another cup of coffee after the scrubbing ritual, Joe notices a new post in the Huckabee thread.
It appears to be posted by steamboatconscience, whom Joe recognizes as a regular member of the SP & T forums.
Joe reads the post extremely quickly, as one with his superlative mental powers can do, and comes across the word " narcissistic " , used in a descriptive sense.
Joe leans back and ponders the term, and it's particular use to describe Joe, and thinks " Am I narcissistic ? Does the fact that men want to be me and women want to be with me qualify me for such a term ? Is it because my superior intellect, demonstrated by my previous posts, makes others uncomfortable? "
Joe then realizes that he may possibly be slightly self-absorbed, but at least can admit to his faults.
freshair (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 10:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The vast majority of mathematicians and physicists who have considered the probabilities involved in the evolutionary model have uniformly concluded that the theory is simply implausible as an explanation for the origin of Life.
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 10:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
As Joe reads freshair's latest post, he wonders if freshair could please cite exactly his/her's source for his/her's ridiculous claim.
As Joe continues to parse freshair's sentence, he thinks to himself " Now what would a vast majority constitute? Would that be 70% ? 80 % ? Joe thinks that certainly, if 80% of all mathematicians and physicists "uniformly concluded" that evolutionary theory is implausable, Joe would have heard of it.
Joe realizes that freshair is showing a fundemental lack of understanding of the scientific method in this particular post. Scientists rarely, if ever, "uniformly conclude" anything, considering that to do so would be opposite of true science.
Joe would like freshair to now cite his/her sources.
steamboatsconscience (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 10:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
well joey
admitting to your faults puts you one step above sbvor in the evolutionary food chain albeit on the lower rungs.
conscience made a mistake in the spelling of Gauloises.
It has been many years since conscience has smoked them in Paris with his friends Pablo and Jean Paul.
But that is another story for another time.
424now (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 10:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Chuckle
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 10:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe notes that freshair says mathematicians and physicists have made this discovery, noticably excluding biologists, who happen to be supremely qualified to speak to the matter.
Leaning back, it appears to Joe that freshair gets his/her information from the discredited "Intelligent Design" movement. Joe now recognizes this statement as the well-worn Argument from Authority, in which a debater attempts to support his statement by, in this case, anyone with a Ph. D.
Joe says to himself " Well, freshair my friend, I'm awaitng your response regarding your sources".
Joe's dog raises it's furry head and looks at Joe, wondering to which inanimate object he's talking to.
"It's OK doggy," Joe says, " Just another inanimate object, however this one can type on a computer and find the link to the Creation Research Institute".
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 10:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe turns back to the monitor and reads SC's post.
Joe wonders what it is that makes him/her think that Joe resides on the lower rungs of the "evolutionary food chain" (Joe though that chains had links, and that ladders had rungs, but he's been wrong before."?
However, wrong in a glorious, well meaning, amazingly perceptive way that women seem to find irresistable.
justathought (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 11:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Your "superior intellect" is proven false by your own admission of "lights his 30th cigarette of the day". Light another and cover your butt, wouldn't want you brain to get too chilled.
SBS, I'd trade this vainglorious gasconader for sbvor (links and all) any day. At least sbvor's diatribe depicted his/her views and not a multitude of self-worshiping ramblings.
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 11:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe returns to the computer, only to find that there had been another post added while he was away, this one by what he considers to be a non-entity, a caustic, narrow-minded ball of frustration that calls itself "justathought".
Yet another smile crosses Joe's well-formed lips as he reads the very sad post by this ball of frustration.
Joe realizes that this poster has absolutely no sense of humor, probably very little education, and is frustrated to the point of resorting to name-calling and otherwise abhorrent behavior usually associated with an unruly, spoiled child.
Joe laughs out loud as he visions what this poster's life must be like, lashing out at everything he/she/it doesn't agree with, trying impose his/her/it's beliefs on others.
Joe wonders what set this particular person off, thinking possibly it could be that Joe has been showcasing his amazing cognitive skills, incredible physical attractiveness, and ability to write from a third-person narrative.
Joe reminds himself to remind justnothought, that 3rd is the number after 2nd, in case there's any confusion.
Joe, however, realizes that justnothought has the right to speak however he/she/it wishes, but that justnothought shouldn't surprised at the inevitable outcome of a debate with Joe.
With that, Joe goes back to the drudgery of work, content that yet another small-minded person has been remnded of just how strange their behavior seems to freethinking, intelligent people.
steamboatsconscience (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 11:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)
joey, joey, joey
self absorbency will only get you tossed into the trash like a Brawny paper towel.
To get back to what this thread was supposed to be about before it was hijacked by the creationist-evolutionists and joey's (intended ?) mental masturbations, that being Mr Huckleberry's lauding the conservatives of this community.
Mr H quote
"It has been an effort to explain Conservative thought and to apply it to current issues. It has been an attempt, and I think a successful one, to dispel the myth that Conservatives are a selfish and hardhearted lot."
fortunately the most vocal of the neocons, of whom Mr Huckleberry applauds, the poster formerly known as sbvor, did the most damage to the conservatives by his incessant diatribes and putdowns of ANYONE who would dare disagree with him and delighted in applying Limbaugh like labels such as dim, fascist, pimp etc. to all who dared to question him. this spokesman for the conservatives singlehandedly did more damage to the Republican Party in Routt County, and no doubt has been censured by them. unfortunately his manifesto of bile has been removed from public scrutiny by the paper (but may exist in consciences' vaults) but I expect him to resurface (perhaps already) initially in a kinder gentler form. LOL
not to be forgotten we have Mr Rich "win one for the Gipper" Akin, cheerleader extrodinaire, Ms Mary K "dittohead" Allen who "passes the popcorn" while lambasting the people's Constitutional right to allow all the states citizens choose their party's representative for President.
if you want to see how much respect the writers of these columns have in our community Mr H, read the replies to this column by Mr s uh Epley,
http://www.steamboatpilot.com/news/2007/...
might change your views.
steamboatsconscience (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 12:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
justa
gasconader
great word! LOL
now tell me, who around here has the time or the ego to be spending so much time being such a gasconader?
when will the kimono open?
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 12:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe, like Brawny, has the amazing ability to wring himself out and free himself of the weight of the yellow liquid that gets sprayed around these forums. Just another reason housewives find Joe irresistable.
However, Joe agrees with your post. Since Joe has been following these forums for a while before deciding to add his narration, Joe agrees that sbvor did more harm than good. In fact, it appeared that he didn't even read the info contained his own litany of linkage.
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 12:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe understands the implication contained in SC's post, however he actually knows what he's talking about, quite unlike sbvor, and has a highly refined sense of humor, along with an amazing profile (especially from the left side).
steamboatsconscience (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 12:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
joey, joey, joey
you are such a card
424now (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 12:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
SBC,
Chuckle,
You, are counseling someone else as to their self absorbance? You certainly have the experience to make the attempt. Good luck in that endeavor.
steamboatsconscience (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 1:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
42
if the shoe fits!
but I doubt I'll find Cinderella
but a wolf in sheep's clothing?
ummmm maybe!
LOL
freshair (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 1:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Scientific Dissent From Darwinism...read 'em and weep, Joemama.
http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org/
424now (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 1:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
lol
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 1:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
freshair,
Are you really using the Discovery Institute — Center for Science and Culture as your itellectual foundation? I am laughing so hard that my banana milkshake just ejected itself out of my nostrils! Thanks for the chuckle...
freshair (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 2:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
hadleyburger....get a hold and read the list of eminent scientists who have signed the list. Heads of University depts, Prof's emeritus, Ph.d's representing every biological science relevant to all aspects on the origins of Life. And all much more qualified and informed than you and the rest of the members of the Church of Darwinism on the subject.
freshair (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 2:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"If life just happened, why can't scientists take the sludge of amino acids and whatever else and make life?"
Orthodox Evolutionists please feel free to reply....intelligently.
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 3:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Wonderful freshair! You have managed to expose a new topic that could be titled: "the problem with tenure". Personally, I don't care what you believe as long as you don't try to infect the process of learning with your virulent disease known as self imposed ignorance. I shall pity you and your trite existance. How painful a life yours must be to constantly be trying to keep your bubble inflated.
The priests of the different religious sects ... dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight, and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subdivision of the duperies on which they live.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Correa de Serra, April 11, 1820, quoted from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief
bandmama (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 3:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
forget faith..........Joe, please go on about those lips and such.....what a nice afternoon break for a girl. Cant wait to go home. please continue to teach me about your beliefs.......
424now (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 3:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Oooo wait, HP!
Here we go!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_I...
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 4:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
424now,
I really love the names that these folks affix to their cult. It is such a subterfuge. The WEDGE approach is a prime example of how these folks seek to undermine the seperation of church and State. That is, of course, as long as "we the people" provide public education which is a topic for a whole other thread. Regardless, every time these people have had their day in court, they have been horribly beaten back by the light of logic and reason. Creationism (Itelligent Design) has never been a theory by modern scientific standards, but rather a philosophy that I would expose children to in a religious studies or humanities class. I would also expose children to the bible in a liturature class or the above aforementioned classes. I am very confident that evolution and other scientific theories could stand up against the irrational assaults that forever will be brought against them. Knowledge, will always win out in a true and flourishing Democracy where ideas and opinions can be tested, refuted, and / or upheld. This is one of the reasons why I did not support Huckabee. I strongly felt that his platform advocated the not so subtle errosion of that which I hold most dear, Liberty.
bloggyblog (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 4:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)
bandmama, what about blog? blog can be mysterious and erotic too, check it out. "as blog sits in front of blogs computer, blog brushes away a strand of greasy,stringy hair that is hanging in blogs eyes. blog gently caresses blogs thin,cracked, bleeding lips and tugs at blogs skidmarked boxers that are creating a wicked wedgie. peeling, dead skin fall from blogs puny arms, accumulating on blogs keyboard like freshly fallen winter snow." what do you think? bet you never realized blog was so sexy and the best part, theirs more where that came from!!
steamboatsconscience (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 5:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
HAHAHAHAHAHHHHAAAA!!
conscience just peed his/her/its pants!
424now (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 5:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Not that I agree with your lack, or most peoples application, of faith. I walk my path.
After a great deal of soul searching and self examination I still find myself with a firm belief in the all mighty. Couldn't shake it, it just feels to me like God is here. Ooooga boooga and all that.
Although my respect for and membership in any organized religion has passed away with my youth. I have still found in my wanderings pastors, preachers and good ol' normal folk that exhibit an understanding of my refusal to adhere to a complete doctrine of religion when I am satisfied with a piece thereof and repulsed by the rest.
Sadly as I have seen many churches and spoken with a good many preachers. I have found many wanting in moral or intellectual character. What frightened me most was the blind acceptance of their flock. I have allowed my self to be preached at with what I would term nonsense in order to glean a nugget of true wisdom every now and again. My faith in God is mine and I have yet found a human who measures up to the task of speaking for the all mighty.
Low and behold after years of referring to myself as first a Southern Baptist and later a Protestant, I found myself actually practicing an agnostic theist approach to my belief in God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_th...
424now (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 5:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
And Mama,
I won't sensualize where the simple fact will do, I'm six feet tall, built like a brick house and I climb waterfalls for fun.
and I play a wicked guitar riff.
bandmama (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 5:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
oh bloggy- I didn't mean to leave you out, but the dino experience took me to a whole new level of appreciation for you..... took me by complete surprise, as you were much more subtle at awaking pleasures...where as Joe just pimped himself out. A little lotion may help that arm thing.....everything else....ohhhhhhhhh! MY! What a girl wants...........
bandmama (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 5:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
424- you sound good too! But how do you climb a waterfall? Unless it is frozen? ahhhhhhhh......mama likes warmth.
and I am so sorry to tease and disaapoint you, there is room for only one musician in mama's life....am not completely nuts!
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 5:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
424now,
You have my respect and understanding. You also have my sincere gratitude for serving this country and defending just what we are doing here in this forum.
Thank you,
HP
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 6:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe finally returns home, sits in his chair (or as he likes to think of it, his throne), lights a smoke, sips from his glass and with a modicum of anticipation begins to read the latest posts from the bored and/or lazy in Steamboat Springs who seem to regularly post in the forums.
"Read 'em (sic) and weep", he reads........
So, Joe being a logical, freethinking, albeit stunningly handsome human, reads......
What he reads makes him almost convulse with laughter. He reads Hadley's post, which says " Are you really using the Discovery Institute — Center for Science and Culture as your Intellectual foundation?". Joe could not have said it better, although he probably would have looked better saying it.
Joe sits back, sips from his glass, and thinks about how freshair has either ignored or failed to comprehend Joe's post regarding the Argument from Authority.
He thinks about how people rush past facts in order to post something to further their own agenda, which more often than not means furthering their own pathetic ego.
Joe takes a sip, and thinks about how he's nothing like that, especially the part about furthering egos, since Joe's ego is reinforced daily by the multitude of beautiful women (and embarrassingly, a few men) wanting more of his time, not to mention the reality of his amazingly perfect visage in the mirror on a daily basis.
Joe reads freshair's next post, which does nothing but repeat Snowmaker's previous post (apparently because creationists have no NEW ideas). He realizes that freshair's lack of cognitive skills has forced him to ignore Joe's previous answer, which equates Snowmaker's question to the God of the Gaps postulation. He realizes freshair either misread Joe's previous post, or is too ignorant to understand it.
Joe sips from the glass, and thinks to himself, " At least there's only a few more months of these sort of folks in positions of power."
"Maybe there is a god, although he made it here a few years too late."
Joe lets a smile escape from his incredibly detailed and sensual lips, and thinks about folks like freshair are truly missing the point, and how Joe - in his incredibly indelible way - is trying to bring the truth to the people.
Joe reads on to another post, this time from someone he respects, known throughout the land as "bloggyblog".
Joe reads blog's post regarding his own sensuality, and his hope of displaying said sensuality to bandmama, another of the few humans Joe happens to have respect for.
Joe laughs at blog's post, since he happens to have a sense of humor, unlike some the posters here.
Joe_Mama (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 6:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Con't....
Joe then reads on the 424's next post, which postulates 424's physical prowess, not quite as impressive as Joe's, but nevertheless formidible.
Then Joe reads 424's last line "and I play a wicked guitar riff", and decides.....
Joe is a guitar player, and would be honored to "cut heads" any time with 424, either on the guitar or in a debate format.
Joe sits back, sips, and wonders if he is starting to be a little too tough on his newfound friends.
424now (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 6:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
HP,
Thank you. I am flattered but this is one American you don't have to thank for doing my duty. One male from my fathers family has served in United States Army since the Lusitania went down. In my generation it was me.
I live by one tenent that serves me well.
Be the one to help simply because you are present and able.
424now (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 6:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey Joe,
If on warm spring nights you walk outside in old town and hear a melodic stream of music that is at once original and captivating you can rest assured that 42 is entranced once again by his six string companion. The ony thing on Gods greeen earth my wife gets to be jealous about.
Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 6:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
And so it is evident 424now, that you come from an honorable line that has carried more than its share of the burden to allow the light of freedom to shine brightly as a beacon of hope in a dark world. "Be the one to help simply because you are present and able"; such humble words and yet so damn meaningful.
Joe_Mama,
You can play Goldmund and I will play Narcissis.
bandmama (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 6:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
424-please tell your wife that mama understands and not to have the same self esteem issues I sometimes have.......until I realize I am jealous of STRINGS....... Joe is just so utterly attractive in oh so many ways..................
(bloggy is also! just in a really different way.........really different)
I have to go now.....Joe is breathing and I just HAVE to watch!
nibbler (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 10:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The only one we have not heard from yet is Jay_K
RockyMountainTop7 (anonymous)
April 29, 2008 at 11:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
False religion equates to a man's or woman's attempt to build and climb a ladder to God; in the meantime God is reaching out to man or woman.
My ladder wasn't tall enough...:)
Eve (anonymous)
April 30, 2008 at 2:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well I was asked to check this out by a friend who thinks you all are better than prime time. I must say you all are entertaining.... better than our presidential debates. Joe I do think you have tipped your glass a few too many times, the brain cells are beginning to shrivel despite your best efforts to hydrate. While you must think you are something: athletic and 6ft tall sounds much better. I'll keep checking in and laughing my xxxx off. You should all try to get syndicated :).
424now (anonymous)
April 30, 2008 at 3:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Now theres an idea!
Hey Matt!
Have you got any contacts in La la land or the city that never sleeps?
bubba (anonymous)
April 30, 2008 at 6:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Freshair, I will skip through the rest of the foolishness and address your posts. I normally don't get into the religious discussions, but your assertion that the vast majority of mathematicians find spontaneous life implausible sort of irks me as a mathematician.
First of all, 'plausible' means believable, and often deceptively so. So 'implausible' means not believable, and perhaps deceptively so.
Belief in something, in this context requires faith. Faith means believing in something that cannot be shown to be true. There is absolutely nothing in applied mathematics that cannot be proven, via mathematical proofs. Some items of theoretical math have yet to be proven, but those certainly do not apply to the basic probability concepts we are talking about here. So whether a mathematician finds something 'plausible' is of no more significance to the discussion of evolution than the color of the shirt he or she was wearing when asked what they believe. The physicist part I can't understand why that would be relevant, as they study primarily motion, not probability or organic chemistry, which are the issues here. Either way, opinion does not affect probability.
OK, to answer your 'why can't a scientist produce life' question. The earth, millions of years ago, was covered in primordial soup, and did not have an atmosphere. For millions of years. During this time, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen, the basic building blocks of life, in various combinations covered the earth. Due to the lack of atmosphere, this was an unpredictable place, with solar radiation, sun bursts, meteors hitting, without the protection of the atmosphere all sorts of wierd stuff happened. For millions of years. So over these millions of years, in an area equal to the size of the earth's surface, with all sorts of heat/energy both from the sun, debris from the sky and volcanic activity from within, this mixture of organic compounds was subjected to all sorts of combinations of energy/temperature, etc... In time, perhaps, scientists may be able to create life, but to be fair, it took the first guy millions of years and the entire surface of the earth to do it, so it could take some time (more on this later).
bubba (anonymous)
April 30, 2008 at 6:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
(continued)
So to tie the concept of why a mathematician's opinion doesn't matter and the millions of years of primordial sludge being exposed to radiation and energy on the surface of the earth, we go to probability.
Say, for instance that the probability of x chemicals joining together is 1 in a million. For simplicity's sake, say that there are a million of these groups of x chemicals in the most simple cell of life, the first cell of life. The probability of all of these chemicals forming is a number that can be calculated. It is infinitesimally small, but is greater than zero, meaning it IS possible. No mathematician will ever tell you that something with a probability greater than zero is impossible. Nor will one tell you that a combination of events that all have a probability of greater than zero can have a probability that is anything other than greater than zero. Therefore, any combination of possible events is possible, no matter how infinitesimally small the actual probability is.
So for a mathematician to say that something is 'implausible' is merely their religious belief, and has no bearing on the math behind it, because if they told you it was impossible, then they are lying, or not a very good mathematician. The only accurate statement they could make would be 'the probability of all of those occuring is not greater than zero by a statistically significant amount.' Which most people take to mean the probability = 0, and therefore it is impossible. This is simply not true, and I believe it to be the source of your confusion.
For example, it is a 100% true statement to say that 'purchasing a powerball ticket does not improve the probability of winning by a statistically significant amount.' This is a true statement. So while the probability of any given ticket winning is greater than zero (1/180,000,000 if I remember correctly), the probability is not statistically different than zero.
bubba (anonymous)
April 30, 2008 at 6:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
(Continued)
So we all know that people have won Powerball, so there is proof that things with such low probabilities can occur.
Back to the primordial sludge on the surface of the earth. There were likely billions upon billions of chemical reactions every second in this environment, and this went on for millions of years. This allowed ample time for chemical combinations of all sorts to form, unform, reform, deform and so on. No matter how unfathomably small the probability of some chemicals, through repetition, it became slightly more probable with each second.
Now, the exact chain of events that led up to life forming on earth cannot be known for sure, so the exact probability may be impossible to calculate, but the probability is greater than 0, thus possible.
I personally don't believe in God or Intelligent Design or any of that (I guess you probably knew that by now) but it is certainly not impossible that the chain of events that led to the creation of life involved the hand of God. (that, I believe, has